welcome to the story.

What I'm Reading This Week: Love In The Time Of Cholera by Gabriel Garcia Marquez What I'm Listening To This Week: Shane Barnhard and Shane Everett, Matt Redman, The Ataris, I Am Sam Soundtrack

I'm back from OneDay, fresh with a new perspective and a full journal. So I'll be posting some stuff on here the next couple of days. I'm going to try and post the dates and time from when I wrote each entry so it'll progress along as my journey did. Some of the entries may not have times, but they'll still be pretty much in order. Here's the first day's entries. 5.25.03 3:00 pm I'm officially at OneDay. It rained all last night and the tent leaked in my face and everywhere else. And since my super cool goose feathered sleeping bag isn't supposed to get wet, I had to put it back in my bag and instead slept under a towel. Which would have been great had it not gotten wet after 30 minutes. So instead of sleeping under a rain soaked towel, I went blanketless. So I got no sleep and woke up in a bad mood, with my allergies in full motion mind you. But then Sharon and I went up to the OneDay 268 Art Gallery and looked at some of the artwork that students had done in preparation for OneDay. And as I looked at and reflected and meditated on the works and the words that described the pieces, I could feel my heart starting to dial into why I was here. And within me, I started to come around the sacred. And that made the long night seem not so long anymore. I really can't wait. To tune into God fully and unhindered. To spend time with Sharon. To let go and get rid of some of my junk, past, present, and future. 5.25.03 7:35 pm The eager expectation and awaiting of a diving and sacred moment. Sitting around, waiting for Crowder to lead us to a holy place. And as I wait, my heart and mind and body have already begun the journey to that place. As my all begins to focus into the Spirit and the moment, I wait for the full fledged encounter that I'm entering into with my Creator. As He engages us in a solemn assembly and as hungry souls. Desperate to touch Him back as we offer ourselves in broken pieces of worship. 5.25.03 7:45 pm Laid back on a blanket staring at a blue sky as the sun sets. Laying in a grassy field with the cool air and a perfect breeze. I can't help to imagine the proud, warm feeling that God might have right now as He looks down at us, His creation joining in with creation. And for a moment, we are living as we were created to. A redemptive moment of worship. 5.25.03 10:30 pm I pray that I would never come to the cross for any benefits, but only for its glory. 5.25.03 11:00 pm The scandal and shame All for us, all for me. The gore and pain All for us, all for me.

What started as a whisper Slowly turned into a scream Searching for an answer Where the question is unseen I don't know where you came from And I don't know where you've gone Old friends become old strangers Between the darkness and the dawn Will I see your face again? I still hear you saying All of life is a chance And is sweetest When at a glance But I live a hundred Lifetimes in a day But I die a little In every breath that I take Will I see your face again? I listen to a whisper Slowly drift away Silence is the loudest Parting word you never say I put your world Into my veins Now a voiceless sympathy Is all that remains Will I see your face again?

Leaving on a jet plane. Going toooooooo OneDay.

A friend of mine emailed me and said that my journal might be a little to open. A little to transparent. I don't think I care. What I write is what I feel. I don't think about it. I don't rewrite it. I simply let my heart pour out and what comes out, stays out. Its raw emotion. Its raw feelings. Its raw Josh. Just like Job poured out his frustrations to his friends and God. I pour out my frustrations to my friends and God. What I feel and write is a part of my very redemption. It is a part of the process that is bringing me a little bit closer to Him. No matter how "raw" it may be. The images and words and thoughts that have been in my head over the past few weeks are spilling over into these words. I wish I could delete the images that I've seen. I wish I could erase the words I've heard and said. I wish I could eliminate every thought that has drifted through my head aimlessly. But I can't fight these things. I'd be fighting the very thing that makes me who I am. The things that have shaped me and led me here. So I embrace them and learn from them, albeit in a difficult fashion. It'd be easy if I didn't let anyone see "me", but then they would never know who I am. And who I am is a hungry man on a journey to the heart of God. So if my journey is a little messier than the clean cut journey of someone else, then so be it. But its me. And I fight the battle everyday to embrace myself the same way that God does. And it is to that end that I write and feel and think and live and move and breathe. For in Him, I exist. To God be the glory.

Its funny that I'm having to lose what I want in order to find what I need.

The great author Peggi Robinson wrote this. If you're not familiar with her work, you should really take the opportunity to get to know it. ;) It is silent around me, but so loud inside Thoughts race, they spin through my head Endless possibilities, things I could have done Words that should have been spoken Things seem simple, but it is only a facade Life never leads you where you expect to go Yet each life leads in a perfect direction A path of controlled divine confusion That confusion somehow brings us together Leads people to one another, intertwines us and makes us whole Takes us places we never thought we would go Until the confusion becomes something clear and beautiful But until the clarity comes I am left to wait To sit in the loudest silence I have ever heard Not knowing what direction I am facing Though my heart is led where it has been all along

From an email from my good friend who I've never met, Sharon Majorie Barbour of Seattle, Washington. May we all display the same brilliance and beauty that is her life. "It's another one of those times in my life. There have been so many this year. Days and weeks where all i can do is reflect on my past and consider my future. And although i've spent so much time dwelling in times and places not of the present...i feel more in the moment than ever. Everything has become an adventure. I don't know how to express it all. I think the best way to say it is to say that i'm in love with living. is that a bad thing? i know it's not good to attatch myself to the world, and i don't think that i am...but i truly love it. and it's funny that the things that move me the most are in many cases the most unappealing images in this world. i just finished reading a novel taking place in india, a very highly reccomended novel, being praised for it's truthful portrayal of the countryl. and a wonderful story at the same time. but the images of pain and suffering that are now burned in me make breathe so much deeper than yesterday. whenever i read a book, especially novels of other places and times, this quote from my oh so favorite film You've Got Mail replays in my ears for days ...meg ryan writes, "sometimes i wonder about my life. i lead a small life, well valuable but small. and sometimes i wonder: do i do it because i like it or because i haven't been brave? so much of what i see reminds me of something i read in a book, when...shouldn't it be the other way around?" i feel like that a lot. sometimes more than others. i can sit at the beach on a rock i particularly like, where all my eyes take in are blue and green colors against a mountainous backdrop. and so i sit there and feel as if all that is inside of me wants to take off and risk anything i can to make a mark to make a change and a difference. to go against everything i'm comfortable with and live in a dangerous adventure. but then a few moments pass and the sun will go down and i turn around to see the sand that i've sat on for the past 19 years and think about how many times my feet i've made impressions on the narrow strip of land and i'm okay with everything i have experienced. and i see the adventure that i've already had. and the marks that i have made. it's all so confusing. there really isn't any black or white to it. it's all spherical. to sum it all up: i feel i may burst and leave little pieces of me everywhere."

And the sunset throws the planets back in line. And I feel it but wish I didn't. Maybe tomorrow will be different. In fact . . . it will be.

Oh yeah. I apologize for the rant that I was on from my online class . . . the 5 part conversation I posted. Sorry for all the "heady/intellectual" junk I've been spouting. I'm going to try and keep it a little dumber for the next few weeks. I'm tired of thinking.

Well . . . life is definitely one of the more amazing things. It's not always as cut and dry as we would like it to be. It's not always so crystal clear. Instead it's usually messy. Usually full of hopes that only to quickly become disappointments. But I think, possibly for the first time, that I'm beginning to be ok with messy side of life. The times when the tables get turned. The times when my heart hurts. I'm starting to realize that when that happens, it's usually for two reasons. One, it's God using that disappointment to shape me and teach me. Or two, the disappointment is because I set up my idea of what I needed as the goal, instead of God's. I used my perspective of what I needed, instead of God's perspective. I placed my will as the objective to be fulfilled, instead of God's. And I think that may be where I am right now. My heart and emotions and what I want, are telling me one thing, and God is patiently trying to get me to drop my perspective for a glimpse of His. Now God obviously wants to fufill my heart and emotions and my desires sometimes. But I don't think that's what He's doing here. It's hard though. Real hard. But when I see my diappointments through this lens, then I can more fully embrace the idea the disappointment and messiness of the situation, is something that is serving a larger goal outside of my individual self. And I just have to remind myself of that. When the crystal ball isn't so crystal clear. But to be honest, most of the time I'm torn. Because if I stay disappointed, if I keep my perspective, then at least I can still leave open the possibility of getting what I want. So instead of allowing myself to move past the hurt, I almost want to stay in the midst of it. Because even if my heart is broken, at least I can still feel. Even if the feeling is disappointment. At least then, I can still leave the door to my heart open. So there is this battle between staying hurt or rising above it. But the beauty of the decision is that it, like life, is not so cut and dry. And that's what makes life so beautiful. Pain, disappointment, hurt, everything that comes from a messy situation is a part of this beautiful process. It's a journey. It's a process. And it's one that I'm glad I'm on. Because I know ultimately, despite my battle to fight between these two worlds, I'll get the best. I'll get the best in a relationship, in a job, in a family, in love . . . and most importantly . . . in life. The words to God of Wine by Third Eye Blind ring clear in my head now. I changed the words around as kind of a prayer. Every thought that I repent, there's another chip I haven't spent. And I'm cashing them all in, where do I begin? To get clean again, can I get clean again? I walk home alone with you, and the mood I am born into. Sometimes you let me in, and I take it on the chin. I can't get clean again. I want to know, can I get clean again? The God of Wine comes crashing through the headlights of a car that took me farther than I thought I'd ever want to go. I can't get back again. I can't get back again. I take a drink and then I wait, the alcohol it permeates, and soon the cells give way, and cancel out the day. I can't keep it all together, I know...I can't keep it all together. And the siren's song that is your madness, holds a truth I can't erase. All alone on your face. Every glamorous sunrise, throws the planets out of line. A star sign out of whack, a fraudulent zodiac. And the God of Wine is crouched down in my room. She let me down, I said it, now I'm going down, and she's not even around. And I said no... I can't keep it all together, I know...I can't keep it all together. And there's a memory of a window, looking through I see her. Searching for something, I could never have found with her. And there's someone who understands me more than I do. Then a happiness I can't erase. All alone on my face.

Its so hard to walk in that perfect groove. Where I know exactly what to do and when to do it and how to do it. Its a constant battle to stay in that line of communication with God. It would make everything so much easier if I could just automatically stay there instead of having to fight a daily battle of turning the volume down on my motives and flesh and tuning into the heart of God. Maybe then I wouldn't get in so much trouble with my words, actions, and feelings. Then I could just speak when led, act when told, and feel when I'm supposed to. Instead of doing it all backwards according to me. And lets be honest, "life according to me" doesn't work out all that much. It usually leaves me hurt, confused, guilty, and other random assorted feelings that I'm not supposed to have. So maybe one of these days I'll get in that line of communication and stay there for more than a split second. Here's to that day.

Remember that the natural progression of this conversation starts at Part 1 and that Part 5 is the last one in order. Part Five - The Final Rant Jerry Coleman: If the bible is your authority.....but not your own interpretation of it....may I just ask you one question...How can it be your authority if you do not know what is in it? If you have to get someone else to show you what is in it, then what is the authority...the book or the man? I do undertand that my interpretation must come thru the Holy Spirirt....not of myself...But my authority is what my interpretaion of the Bible says to me with the help of the Holy Spirit. Yes I need man to guide me with knowledge about the history of the books, the background the reason for writting the book, to whom it is written...but after that its up to me and the Holy Spirit to get it right....will I always be absoulutly right...I would guess not, but I would rather be wrong on my own position as the Holy Spirit guided me than to listen to another person. You people can call me a Baptist heritec all you want....you can laugh at my positions....but at least they are mine, or should I say what the Holy Spirit has shown to me.........I dont have know way of telling if anyone has the the gudance of the Holy Spirit. Why would I listen to a man over the Spirit... I have a personal standing with God, equal to any other man on this earth. I do not believe in modern day apostles. So my standing with the Holy Spirit is equal to any. So why sould I listen to another man, when I have the Spirit whithin me. I hope, and this is my prayer, that all here would alwasys fol the Holy Spirit and never a man...we should always have are eyes on Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our faith. He alone will guide you, men can let you down. Teacher can teach falsly. Do I hold the view of all of my professors...heavens no....but can each and every one of them guide me in some way, can they not increase my knowledge of God...the answer is yes....very much yes....but my ultimate interpretation of the Scriptures is between me and the Holy Spirit...not me and men. That is why Christ died on the cross, to reconcile me to the Father, I now have direct access to Him for prayer....and guess what...its a two way street...He teaches me the Scripture...Does it not say that in the Bible, that it is Spiritualy decerned. If this is a Baptist position,,, then by all means lable me the biggest Baptist you have ever known..... And yes you are right, we should not even be arguing about this, there is a point when it just becomes a personal pious contest and this did. Once you pass the point of changing minds, or in guidance, then it is time to shut up...my opologies to all if I have gone too far in defending my faith. I really dont understand why people with such views that are totaly anti-Baptist would be going to a Baptist Seminary. Had to get in one last punch..........lol Me: My positions aren't anti-Baptist. They're anti-Pharisee if that helps me clarify myself. And would it surprise you if I told you that I'm 22 years old and for 20 years of my life, I was as Baptist as Baptist gets? This might surprise you since you perceive me to be a heretic for thinking outside the Baptist box for a second, but I agree more with "Baptist" theology than any other "denominations". But I think denominations are unbiblical, so I'm really a walking contradiction. But that's why I began at Luther Rice. Now the only reason I'm still here is to learn what not to do as a pastor. To learn how not to be a close-minded fundamentalist. To learn how not to just "know" the truth, but to experience it as well. Essentially I'm learning more of what not to do than in ministry than learning what I should do. But that's another story for another day. And one that I'm sure no one else agrees with. But since I'm already a heretic, I'd figured I'd go ahead and say it just so you could have more fuel for your fire. And thanks for the last punch. I'm sure it won't be the last in my ministry to connect people with God in a vital relationship. But I imagine if I said the right things, and kissed the right . . . . feet . . . . and did the religion gig, I wouldn't be getting any punches. But that's just not my style. Jerry Coleman: I ran what you said by a Church History professor here at Luther Rice...I will not post what he said of your opinions. But of course that would be a Baptist position. The funny thing, I learned in Church History that all the reformers we trying to get the Bible into the peoples hands, they believed in the priest hood of the believer...You claim to have reformed position. but your positions would go against most of the reformers positions. You may have a different history book than me. But I am not accusing you of herasy, nor have I. I oppologize for being strait forward, its much easier to type straight forward than to talk it. Me: I agree with your assessment of the Reformers, but with a different slant. I do not believe that there main goal was to get the Bible into the hands of the believers, so much as it was to overturn the corrupt AUTHORITY that was perverting portions of Scripture. Putting the Bible in the hands of the believers as you put it wasn't even possible at this time because of the high price that it cost to own a Bible. But it nonetheless became a byproduct of the Reformation. While I applaud the Reformation and the changes that it brought for the better, I do not think the Reformation accomplished everything that it could have. The Reformers were justified in their frustration with the corrupt AUTHORITY structures that were in place. But in their zeal to topple that system, they fell into the same trap that they were seeking to get away from. The Reformers (the majority of them) instead of going back to the biblical AUTHORITY structures of the Old Testament Jews and New Testament church, as well as the first 400 years of the early church (before Constantine screwed it up with his wedding of church and state-which led to the corruption of the AUTHORITY that the Reformers were rebelling against), instead of going back to the past to REFORM the current abused AUTHORITY, they simply went forward and REFORMED the current abused AUTHORITY by placing an emphasis on the individual as sole AUTHORITY. This led to "the priesthood of all believers". Now I believe in the priesthood of all believers. But I don't know if our interpretations are the same. You believe in the individual priesthood of all believers and you stop there. I believe in the same thing, but I believe that the priesthood of all believers is only "active" (and i can't really think of a better word, sorry) when it is in a community of believers fleshing out their priesthood. I know I'm getting wordy, but I'm trying to bring clarification to my point and share in love. Neither one is easy for me to do at times. :) Now lets think about this for a minute. I'm begging you to please just stop and think and drop any presuppositions you might have. And prayerfully discern this question. Should Scripture be interpreted in community or individually? I'm sure your first answer is individually. I agree with you to a certain extent. But by saying that interpretation is solely individual, you are putting one person (out of the entire population of the world-past, present, and future) as the sole authority of Scripture. I believe in this style of interpretation, the "priesthood of all believers" individually. But only in so far as that there is a communal aspect to this interpretation. That's why I would say that it is imperative that interpretation is done through community and not individually. Because I'm tainted, because I have my own context and needs that I'm reading into my interpretations, because I live in America with a Western mind, because I have only been exposed to limited interpretations (for me Southern Baptist), because of these things, I need a community to interpret Scripture with me. But because we've placed such a high emphasis on the individual and his interpretation, that as soon as someone disagrees with me, I have the "right" to break fellowship with Him or to start another denomination. Do you see what I'm saying? You've said that an AUTHORITY should not interpret Scripture for us? But you yourself went to a church history professor to check what I was posting on. You yourself run your every interpretation through the grid of Southern Baptist doctrine, which is more than fine by me because I'm sure I run all of my interpretations through my own set. But realizing that Southern Baptist doctrine has only been around for . . . . I don't know . . . I've been fortunate enough not to have to sit through a Baptist History class. :) But for a very short time in light of the past 2000 years. And what is so wrong with having the PROPER AUTHORITY structures interpret Scripture with us in community? There obviously has to be accountability to the AUTHORITIES that interpret so that they do not become corrupt such as the ones that the Reformers were trying to break away from. But wouldn't it make sense to let people who have studied the history of church, know the original languages fluently, know the contexts of the passages, etc, wouldn't it make sense for them to interpret Scripture and then pass down the interpretations for us as we interpret it for ourselves to hold them accountable? I know you probably don't agree with this, and that's fine. It just makes more sense to me to have it that way. Instead of me with very little schooling, very little intelligence, the wrong heart half the time, and a hard head interpreting it how "I" see fit? You say that we all have the same Spirit in us and that it was given to reveal Scripture and God to us? Correct? Well how then do we end up with millions upon millions of interpretations that openly contradict each other if we have the "SAME SPIRIT". The Spirit was given to empower our lives and to illuminate Scripture. But I don't think the Spirit was given to illuminate Scripture to us individually. But as a corporate body in community. Sadly, I do not think this is a possibility for the modern mind anymore because we have already gone to far down the line to revert back to submitting to God ordained authority. But can you see the picture? Instead of me sitting in my room at night with my Bible and my Southern Baptist commentaries and my Southern Baptist upbringing and my Western American mindset, and all the needs that I have on that particular night, interpreting Scripture by myself. Instead of that, couldn't you imagine the beauty of myself, a brother from 3rd world Africa, a sister from oriental China, and others who are different, sitting down and interpreting Scripture together? In this way, our interpretations would be checked by others. However, as I said, I do not know if this is a possibility in today's climate and culture. Because it would require that we drop our own interpretations for a second and be challenged by someone else's. It would put our "Southern Baptist" doctrine in jeopardy at times. God forbid. :) There would have to be some tension that would have to be allowed as we sifted through Scripture together. You might say this is done today in Bible studies and so forth. But how much diversity of interpretation is brought to the table in a Sunday School room? Not much. You usually have 20 people who grew up with the same mindset, live in the same contexts, and believe the same thing. That is why we usually end up assimilating with like-minded people. Methodists do this. Baptists do this. Episcopalians do this. Lutherans do this. Even the "liberals" do this. And even within those groups, there are sub-groups of more like-minded people. But this is not what I'm talking about. And I am not talking about ecumenical unity. But I am talking about communal interpretation that is done amongst a diversified group of people run through the grids of an AUTHORITY structure. This is what the New Testament church did. This is what the early church did. This is not what we do. My thoughts for what it's worth. I'm sure I'll be getting kicked out sometime soon anyway so enjoy them while you can.

Part Four: Me: Somehow I knew you wouldn't disappear into the air. And I'd love to know how you think history does not back up my beliefs. From the beginning of this class, in every post that you've deemed heretical, I've supported with biblical and historical facts. I've practically given you a church history lesson as well as a lesson on the history of thought. The majority of my individual studies has been on this topic of the development of thought, culture, languages, and church history. I've read close to 50 books on this subject and attended close to a dozen lectures and seminars on the subject by evangelical Christians, many of whom are Southern Baptist. I've studied countless hours on the historical movements (ancient, medieval, modern, and postmodern) of thought. What are those movements you might ask? Well you would know if you knew history like I did. So before you say I don't know history, you might want to pull your nose out of whatever close-minded, generic information book that you're reading, and start learning the history behind this movement that you're a part of called Christianity. And I don't know why I would expect you to want to go back to a pre-Constatinian Christianity. Why would anybody want to go back to the form of Christianity that existed for the first 400 years after Christ's death? (sarcasm) I know you're so engrossed into the Constatinian, Western, individualistic version of Christianity that you never stop long enough to think. But then that might be the problem. How in God's green earth does the pre-Constantinian church fit the description of heretical teachings? Are you kidding me? I guess because they didn't have Charles Ryrie and Pentecost spoon feeding them their doctrine, that they're going to hell. Why would the people who made up the pre-Constantinian church, who either conversed or knew the descendants of the apostles, be more heretical than us in 2003? I mean they were only eyewitnesses or descendants of eyewitness right? Those heretics! (sarcasm) Or in your case its not quite a 2003 version of Christianity. More of a 1940s Vacation Bible School/Little House on the Prairie Christianity. I'd like to answer your question with a question. What happened to the nature of Christianity after the Bible was distributed to the people? Did Christians become more mature? Did the world change? Did Christians love more? Granted the first 125-175 years after the Reformation, there was tons of growth. But after this, the growth was your Constatinian growth. But this time it was all about the conquest of another's soul. Little regard was paid toward the Christian actually living out his faith after he was "conquered". That's why the church stinks today. That's why we have so many jacked up problems in our churches. That's why Christianity is on the decline. Yeah, you like to throw numbers that say Christianity is the most popular religion. Or that 95% of Americans believe in God. Or that 70% go to church regularly. But that doesn't mean jack to me or God. He cares about the fact that we drive $50,000 cars while some people don't even have a place to sleep. He cares about the fact that we rush out to buy the newest Christian piece of merchandise without ever giving to the poor. But we all know that we need the newest specialized Bible, whether it be the Leadership, Women's, Sportsman's, Experiencing God, etc Bible. We have to have the newest Max Lucado book. We have to keep dumping money into junk we already know but don't practice. When we should be taking our money and putting into practice. He cares about the fact that the divorce rate is higher for Christians than for the world. He cares about the fact that the American church is in decline because of arrogant, bigoted jerks who treat a unconnected world like dirt. I'm sorry for not coming out of love. But I'll be honest, I'm sick and tired of listening to your uneducated, arrogant, Pharisaical attitude. And you can copy and paste this to the professor, Dr. Flannagan, or whoever else you want. You've been rude to almost everyone in here. Very rarely offering anything positive to say, unless someone is in agreement with you. And you've made more personal accusations than most lawyers do. You epitomize the whole reason I've come to hate seminary. You epitomize the whole reason I've wrestled with dropping out since day one. Your mindset is the reason why the church is losing influence in society. Your heart is the reason why most people won't ever darken the doors of the church. And your "knowledge" and your presentation of it is the reason why Christians get accused of being arrogant, self-righteous, ignorant, and rude. So I'm sure you and probably others, will think this is me not coming out of love. That its me just being hateful and rude. But I'll just see it as me turning the tables on the Pharisees. Eli Sanders: Jerry, I noticed a few inconsistencies in your post. I couldn�t resist responding one last time�First, the Holy Spirit did not abandon His Church after AD 90. He has been supervising, governing and maintaining the Church for several millenniums. Do you really think Jesus lied when He said the �gates of Hell will not prevail� against the Church? It seems that you are suggesting that Christ was absent for nearly 1600 years of Church history� Perhaps you didn�t read my last post. NOWHERE in the post did I even indirectly suggest that Josh and I adopt the teachings of man... I am astonished that you would make such an outrageous remark! Second, the fact that you are enrolled in Bible College contradicts your premise. If you don't need the teachings of man, then why are you attending Bible College with HUMAN professors? Isn't Dr. Vines a "man?" So I guess what you are saying is that you didn't read the textbook because that would be the "teachings of man" according to your vernacular, correct? Jerry Coleman: I am wondering the same thing about you...Can you not understand what I wrote? Man can guide me, man can teach me, but it is up to me....let me say that again,,,,it is up to me to see what I am being taught with the guidance of the Holy Spirit if I dont see it that way...guess what fellows...you can figure out the rest I hope. And that is not a Baptist position, you are very pioused in that regard....it is a Bible position... I never said the Holy Spirit left the Church for 1600 years. I just said He is now working within the bounderies of His word. Is that not very clear......I hope it is...I can understand it with my limited education. You read a lot of things into my posts that are not there. and duck a lot in your own. Seems to me you are a little shaky on your positions. Ill get off that soap box, it is not my intentions to get an aurgument here....just a little debate. But this has turned in to vain babbelings..stupid accusations of things not even said. One time you say you must understand the chuch fathers...the next you have a direct connection....people get it right......its one or the other ...I dare to say you dont even understand your own postitions....and that is just my observation no malice intended. I would love to debate this face to face with yall one day. That is to say over a cup of coffee or a coke. What I am trying to say, you have your view, I have mine...I have no judgment towards you individually,,,and I hope there are not harsh feelings.....I'll pray for you, you pray for me, that truth will be revealed. Me: A response to air: "I dare to say you don't even understand your own positions." I can only laugh. And hard.

Part Three William Herndon: I need to reply to something so...I will just say all this discussion has been interesting, and cause a lot of thought. The Bible is God's Word and we have to put our trust in Him to guide us at all times. I have been learning about the construction of the Bible in Sunday school and it is pretty neat. We must trust that God allowed the books he wanted in, and kept others out. I am not really saying much more than this, it is just interesting that if you wold have asked the early church members what books were holy writings there would have been more books than we have today. Maybe they were weeded out for a purpose, but one in particular seems pretty interesting to me called (Misspelled I am sure) didica, it was full of doctrine which seem pretty in line. Eli Sanders: It is called the Didache... the teachings of the twelve... I'm no expert, but it might be a 2nd century doc. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas were considered legit by some ancient Churches as well... You are going to find that MANY ancient non-canonical epistles were used in public liturgy and private worship in the early Church. It is also revealing to learn that most churches (lower case) only possessed fragments or scraps of gospels or epistles. Owning a complete manuscript was rare, but not uncommon. For a good reference on Church History and the Canon, see "Church History in Plain Language" by Bruce L. Shelley. Me: "It is also revealing to learn that most churches (lower case) only possessed fragments or scraps of gospels or epistles. Owning a complete manuscript was rare, but not uncommon." That's what I was saying. Only the wealthy and the priests had Bibles up until the 1600s. And only until the middle 1800s did the "common man" get to interpret the Bible how he felt "led" (and I use that term loosely) too. So let's look at when the lower case church started going down hill. About the time that everybody started interpreting a passage a million different ways. Because each individual got to interpret it the way they saw fit. So what you got . . . was the biggest onslaught of heretical teachings in all of church history. When did all the denominational division begin? After everybody got their own Bible and started disagreeing with the interpretations. The Reformers did a good job of bringing down the perverted authority structure that was in place, but they didn't go far enough in restoring it to its original structure that the first 400 years of church fathers used (pre-Constantine). But I know that's not Southern Baptist thinking Mr. Coleman. Jerry Coleman: You are right about one thing, I do not agree with your statements, and neiter does history. For you to say or want to go back to pre Constantine Christianity, shows me you do not not very much about church history, and your statement that after the Bible was placed into the individual hands was the biggest onslaught of heretical teachings in all of church History....my my my...the period of pre Constantine would fit that discription. Josh what happened to Christianity after the Bible was distributed to the people. Did it decline, or dit it increase? Can you answer that question? Which one of the denominations are going to hell....the Baptist, the Methodist, which ones are so heritical that they miss the Blood of Jesus? You know that not Southern Baptist thinking either....its just plain history.

The silence floods me with future memories Of the days I thought were ahead. There is confusion in her eyes And dashed hopes in mine. But the feeling is fading now And with that, the silence returns slowly back to noise.

PART TWO Jerry Coleman: I would Hope that one would be reading the Bible for ones self. and that anyone would be following their own interpretation ... Do you Follow the Bible or do you let someone else tell you what it says? Me: You said: "I would Hope that one would be reading the Bible for ones self. and that everyone would be following their own interpretation..." So every person on the world needs to follow their own interpretation? That's viewing the Truth as less absolute than you claim that I do. Eli Sanders: Jerry, Forgive me, but I must press you here, What would happen if everyone in the United States interpreted the Constitution for themselves without concern for law enforcement, the judicial system or the courts? Complete chaos and anarchy... Jerry, Don't be a "do it yourself Christian." By the way, Josh is correct. For nearly 1600 years NO ONE interpreted the Bible for themselves. And for your information, this is not some "Roman Catholic" dogma... The Eastern Church has maintained correlation to the ancient Church that was preserved by the apostles. Have you ever heard of Ignatius, Polycarp or Clement of Rome? These were contemporaries of the apostles, mind you. They were personally selected and appointed by the original twelve. We have their testimony from first and second century letters describing, amplifying and explaining the traditions of the apostles. For over a millennium and a half, until the reformation, the Historic Orthodox Church has maintained consistency in doctrine, practice and tradition. They have resisted heresy and modern, individualistic interpretations of Scripture. Now, for over two millenniums, the Church has remained UN POLLUTED because of the apostolic consistency through the centuries.... (Examine any source for unbiased, non-discriminating material on Church History with an emphasis on the Eastern Church). Until the great schism of 1054, the Church (upper case) was united in form, doctrine and government (so much for autonomy of the church –lower case)… After the filioque clause was introduced to the Nicene Creed and the subordination of the other four patriarchal Churches by Rome, the eastern Church continued divorced from the triumphalistic nature of the West. The truth is, the East was never REFORMED! After 1054, the Roman perversion and betrayal of Orthodoxy characterized the middle ages… While I applaud the reformers, we must never forget that Church history is not divided into two camps… Roman Catholic and Reform…. Ultimately, my question to you is: Why is Church History such a negative phrase in your vocabulary? I guess what you are trying to say is that your post-reform, pluralistic, bigoted, legalistic mindset prevents you from evaluating the legitimacy of your own theological orientation. This inclination also guards you against heretics like Josh and I… As for me and Josh, we rejoice in our persecutions! But, since we don’t wrestle against flesh and blood, this post is not directed to you personally… Forgive my passion, I can be animated at times… While this post may not represent the most eloquent as sophisticated skills one may employ, I hope it has challenged you… Perhaps you should ask yourself, is my theological persuasion a hint of the schizophrenic framework most reform theologians work from? Another appropriate question would be: why does Josh and Eli threaten and intimidate our complacent disposition toward Church History, ecumenism, tradition, hermeneutics, etc.? Maybe the answer is because your world view reflects some measure of insecurity… Jerry Coleman: Christ died on the cross to redeem me. I now have a personal relationship with Him, I have access to the Holy of Holies. I don't need another intercessor between me and God. I don't need an intercessor other than the Holy Spirit between me and the Bible. If you two need that, then ok you follow Christ through men if you want to, just don't try to say I have to do it your way. So you say if a man on a desert Island has a bible he would end up in heresy? He needs to know what the church fathers said and believed? I am sorry, but I can not and will not hold to that assumption. I do not believe in modern day apostles, I do not put any more authority on any man than I do another. The bible is Spiritualy decerned........is it not. Your view is manly decerned. I would like you to answer one question for me.....do you believe that the average man is not capable of understanding the scripturers without knowing about the church fathers and their positions? .......that sound you heard was me throwing up my arms in defeat. My position will never cross yours, and yours would never cross mine. You can have your educated, logical views I dont need them to have a relationship with God. It would not matter if I did not even know that there was a church father I still can have a relationship with God. I have the Scriptures themselves and HE who wrote them inside of me...why do I need a church father. Me: Well you can keep clinging to the latest Georgia Baptist Convention or Southern Baptist Convention's latest bylaws and addendum and I'll keep running my interpretations through and against the grid of the triune God, the Bible, classical theology and the church fathers, church history, modern theology and its theologians, pastoral leadership, and lay leadership. In that order. And if I'm in a good mood, I might check it with what Al Moehler or whoever else is at the Baptist podium on that particular day.

There's nothing like riding home after a girl just jabbed at your heart, with the windows down, Dashboard Confessional peaking out on the speakers, and the steam rising up off the road because it just got finished raining. What a lovely world we live in. Full of hope, surprises, and clouded thinking. Smiles lead to hope and hope to more smiles and then onto frustration and then back to square one. Only this time a little less full than you were before. And a bit more hollowed from the empty dreams that just crashed down out of your mind's eye. So with that . . . here are the lyrics that put me to sleep and drown out my thoughts. From So Impossibleby Dashboard Confessional And you'll be sorry isn't that what they'll say. Don't follow your heart cause it just seems to get in your way. From The Sharp Hint of New Tears by Dashboard Confessional On the way home This car hears my confessions I think tonight I'll take the long way In this weather The wind outside is biting Its left me feeling tired and exposed You've been asking me to bleed It seems these kinds of questions They come too easy to you now And your lack of shame comes naturally I should not be surprised I should of seen it sooner You expect me to apologize For things that you've done wrong While your inciting others Your owning up to nothing And I wish that I was gone Cause your not going anywhere And this damp air It's fighting my defrosters My sighs they ring victorious And fog this tinted glass And its clouded And so is my head The hint of these new tears are shown I try to choke them back But its useless I'm useless against them Their beating me with ease On the way home This car as my confessions I think tonight I'll take the long way